all most want is the money.
best too stick the £££££ in a charity box for this country,thats wot i do,each to there own
uncle jim
KIR

I think you need an half hour chat with Ruth from ECHO uncle!


Richard

_________________
To join ECHO

'Tis better to have hooked and lost, than never to have hooked at all'

Yer what a doughnut, putting shit like that on here, he might think it, but it dont do us eny favours

_________________
no one said it would b easy

Anything the fella says goes in one ear and out the other...

_________________
Bream me up snotty!

Thought uncle teached people how to fish, so what does he say when the geez says, uncle should i join the AT or not bother, arrr dont bother thayve f up already not worth it.

_________________
no one said it would b easy

jim is perfectly entitled to give his opinion fellas

I aint no kiss arse but i think he's bang on about the greed factor, there are many tin pot organisations in operation in angling...... why should we trust the trust?

If you dont know for sure what they are saying and if they actually have any intention to do what they say then the only opinion you can have is that of a sceptic

unless you can look into a magic glass ball or something to see the future it is silly to pin hopes on something you dont understand

_________________

personally i think its a risk worth taking, if it comes off then great, if not, i wont have lost a great deal really

_________________

Yes its a free country i think

_________________
no one said it would b easy

i would say stick it a kids charity box for this country as its better in my opion.
NO thanx richard,to many wonnabeees there,some fishing for wronguns now ,double standards.,flaming joke but we saw it coming ages ago.
problem with most if they dont like wot someone says,they have a one tracked mind and cant see someones elses point off view,so putting the £££££ in a kids charity is is sh@t hey kirky,timmy.fish or kids well matey..,kids all the way.
uncle jim
KIR

Jim, is not securing one voice for angling and anglers the issue here mate?

Angling's past is racked with elitism and double standards, but what about the future, especially for the youngens?

Seems to me that if someone like yourself took up the challenge it would see the Angling Trust for what it's worth, or not.
If they fail to listen and act on anglers input, then with someone like yourself championing the masses, they could be routed by a call for non-renewal. And that would stop them in their tracks.

Angling needs some solidarity with an eye on the bigger picture, not the lesser issues, if we want a better future for angling.

_________________
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument is an exchange of ignorance."
- Robert Quillen

Hello there Jim

"one tracked mind" ? I see you're still singing the same song that you have for years, mostly about ECHO but it seems that any organisation that represents angling and wants to protect angling and fish stocks sends you off again with your "one tracked mind".

Have you ever actually looked into what the A.T. and ECHO are about?

Possibly a more valid question is how much of the income you get from carp angling is given to "the kids"?

Do you put your money where your mouth is Jim?

_________________
ECHO Use your loaf!
Angling Trust Its for you!

Chris Frankish (in the real world)

Just to shout Jims corner with regard to kids and donations. When we did the ZONE youngsters pairs match, Jim was the very first from either a name or the trade to donate, by way of signed copies of his book. When we did a grand xmas competition in THE ZONE(which was housed elsewhere by then) Jim donated a free days tuition for the prize. Not just tuition, but the whole shooting match. Tuition, food, transport, lake fees, full pictorial cd of the day and a video of the youngsters day out.

Not bad for someone who does not put there money where there mouth is.

kind regards Jeff

all i see on here is people moaning about kids tbh

Kids, noddys and newbies are not scum of the earth they are the future

_________________

Absolutely agree, so surely any money spent supporting A.T. is supporting the future of fishing ...for the kids.

_________________
ECHO Use your loaf!
Angling Trust Its for you!

Chris Frankish (in the real world)

Good to hear that Jeff. Its good to see that Jim does support kids as he suggests everyone else does. I was basing my criticism and question on the fact that twice I've been involved in socials at Sandhurst to raise money for G.O.S.H. and Alder Hay. Twice Jim promised a book, twice a book never turned up. We've this years do on this weekend coming so I'm hoping we can split another few hundred quid between em.

I just can't help finding it strange that Jim is always so negative about any organisation that is looking to protect the future of the sport that he makes his living from

_________________
ECHO Use your loaf!
Angling Trust Its for you!

Chris Frankish (in the real world)

right dontknowmuch,
i like to watch for a while and watch for the drivel to sufface instead of playing with some that think they know,but in reality know nowt apart from from the rumours they hear which at most is bullsh@t.
with regards
to this book thing,well dontknowmuch
the event was to do with carp-uk.net and when i was contacted by robin once only just before the event and i was way fishing and it needed to be sorted straight way,robin said to if you cant do it in time no probs.then there was moans from twats that didnt know this and i contacted robin myself and said i would get it in the post when i get back for that event or the next one,he said dont worry about it and wot they were saying on that site about me and he said ive had enough of them moaning and was taking a back seat on his site.me and robin used to get on well and when it all kicked off several times i was banned by the tw@ts.
after this iam very carefull who i help out as there is by far to many idiots/wannabees here in cyber space and in the real world
just for the record i promise this is basicaly wot happened and i couldnt give TWO fcuks to wot you say as its clear you have nowt better to do sponging of the state..lol.
if i could get back on that site iam sure the pm from him would be there...
now everyone if you have the odd look around this dontknowmuch does like a pop at me and we DO play the game but its clear you have other issues with me unless you have feelings for me .....
kind
regards
uncle jim"jim shelley"
KIR
ps,all profit should go back into helping kids ,not in a bank account for a pay rise etc...
pss,iam off fishing/working

Hello there Jim

I'll start by offering my congratulations. Not just for your recent captures (especially the BM) but for the quality of your post above.

It's nice to see you using more words than smileys for a change and expressing your opinions clearly, even though I'm on the receiving end

I go with what you are saying about Robin and the misunderstanding over the book. One of the reasons that I fell out with the Doughnut was because of his "can't be bothered" attitude to the charity side of the Carp-Uk socials. I even struggled to get him to buy any raffle tickets at all at the last Sandhurst social in aid of GOSH and Alder Hay!

This year's event was organised properly by a friend and we succeeded in raising over £1400 for GOSH. No thanks to the Doughnut!

It's good to see we do have at least one thing in common Jim, I'm also banned from the site now

Be lucky

_________________
ECHO Use your loaf!
Angling Trust Its for you!

Chris Frankish (in the real world)

Come back Chris.

I miss you.....

Lowey.

_________________
Mr Soft

Hello Boys,
Interesting topic this but it looks like it needs some truth adding to the mix..!!

Oll it's Doughnut by the way, Robin....

First of all hello Jim, top bagging you've been doing of late so well done for that.
Jim you have told the complete truth regarding the book saga so well done for that, you deserve some truth in return. It was me who actually pulled the plug on you on my forum, because of your arguments with Darren, you were getting right on my wick and causing me headaches. Why? because I find running a forum hard work, why? because I try to please everyone...despite other members asking for you to be banned including Chris I banned you, sorry about that but like I said you were getting right on my wick at the time.... do I regret? despite the hassle you sometimes bring yes.

But you have told the truth and that I was sick of the moaners and still am, I've tried my hardest to help other anglers at much cost to my pocket and much cost to my own angling, yet I still get slagged off and have many people moaning at me and wanting more.

More truths needed I think....regarding Chris's outright lies..!!
I'll start with the raffle tickets the he struggled to get me to buy, I went home with not one penny in my pocket and in fact lent my last fiver to someone else so so that they could buy one last raffle ticket, so regardless of what tickets I did and didn't buy, and I can't remember how many I did buy, I left that place skint...lets not mention of course that the North V South charity match was my idea and that I booked and organised the whole thing from top to bottom, along the way asking for the advice and opinions of others. All the time looking after my family which includes the task of looking after a very autistic young son whos life was saved at one time by the doctors and surgeons of Gt Ormond St. So to hint that I need my arm twisted to join in on the charity front is quite an insult and if I were you I'd start using my words very wisely from now on in.


First of all I was not involved in this years event because I was knackered and needed a rest, not only after organising the socials for the last eight years but from forum life, the childish chatter that goes with it but also from everything else in life, not least the constant difficulties of raising an autistic child...a stress I hope few of you will ever experience.

The firend you mentioned Mark,(Welby) offered to help with this years event offered to help and did a great job but as yet to my knowledge nowhere near £1400 has been raised, whatever was raised will help a child somwhere and I'm totally grateful to Mark for doing the business....one of the nicest blokes I know.

Chris, you are a very sad and very bitter and very strange and childish man, watch your words and stop telling lies.

Be Lucky All....

By the way Richard,
Sorry for the username mate, I just wanted to watch and be unknown for a bit because I knew it would be just a matter of time before such rubbish was posted...feel free to change my username if you want.

As for the Angling Trust, I'm a member and from the emails I've been revceiving from them since they started I can see the amont of work they're doing for angling, it's just twenty quid so get joined up chaps

I'm not even going to rise to the bait Robin, you and I know about who made what efforts in the fundraising department and in all other matters. If you want to chase me about then try calling my phone.

Sorry chaps for taking the thread so ridiculously off topic. Especially as the thread is such an important one. Please feel free to edit or delete as you think necessary to get rid of the rubbish.

_________________
ECHO Use your loaf!
Angling Trust Its for you!

Chris Frankish (in the real world)

I have a great deal of respect for all three of you fellas and the work you do on behalf of charity is commendable (likewise your contributions to angling ), however, if this amount of invidious behaviour goes on, literally on the back of the efforts you've all made, can I ask if you have really found your charity work worth it and by the same token rewarding?

The Angling Trust was founded to bring anglers together to try and form a 'vehicle' to assist our sport and its future - whether that be for disabled anglers, young anglers, ill anglers, and to help give opportunities for those that are disadvantaged among 'other things' etc. etc. - to finally put us on a road of sustainability and stability...

You should all give yourselves a pat on the back for all the good work for charity that you all do, but please don't degrade/devalue your collective efforts to the detriment of the charities that you serve and the people they help!

Question for you Jim, is it really comparable - Angling Trust Vs The Charity Box?


Richard

_________________
To join ECHO

'Tis better to have hooked and lost, than never to have hooked at all'

Hello Richard, back to being me now sorry...

Thanks for making this into a new topic rather than deleting it, some things need saying and the BS needed cleaning up, cheers.


First of all, Jim I'm not sure at all that I made clear my thoughts and what happened with the book saga..!!
Jim was not banned from my forum over anything to do with this book nonsense, the fact is I couldn't be arsed because I was busy chasing him up for the book, time for the event was very near and in my view we had plenty of raffle prizes already so it was no big deal in my view and I don't like chasing people I'm just not that way inclined, at the time I made it clear it was my fault, shoot my with a big gun ay, I can't quite believe that it still rumbles on.

Richard, this is from my perspective...
I find the charity work totally worthwhile but I don't give a rats about rewards for myself, I've both used the services of a kids hospital for my son and seen first hand the terrible problems some of these kids have, I'd gladly suffer any hassles that come along with it apart from lies and kiddy point scoring.

People might well think the likes of Gt Ormond Street are super duper but I can tell you that some of their wards are like going back in time to the thirties and some of their staff really do need all the training they can get, on the flip side though some of their staff have god status for me and some of their wards are breath of fresh air for any worried parent, so any money raised is very needed and very worthwhile....here comes the but..!!

I love fishing and my view on these trips is the social comes first, the fundraising comes second and the fishing last...I couldn't give a rats arse who thinks I should put the fundraising first, to me it's a very good and worthwhile by-product of these events and each time I try to remember to "ask" not assume or force people, I ask if everyone wants this years one to be for charity or as a social only...no one has the right to guilt trip anyone into donating money to any charity, personally I give money when I choose and its firmly my business, I hate people that shake buckets at me and I buy poppies every year and put them in my pocket, it's my business and no one elses...

This is all from my point of view of course and I'll just add that I allow our events to be used as fun-raisers because the members want it to be that way and they all pitch in (including me) in one way or another, I could do much more if I fancy sending myself to an early grave but I don't and doubt I ever will do more, if any sado wants to criticise me for it then I should care because?

Angling Trust V Charity - both angling and Gt Ormond St matter to me so they've both had some of my money but no more then I can afford as my kids do come first.

Be Lucky..!!

I know the question is not aimed at me, but for me the whole point of charity is you give freely and you have a choice. I can give my £20.00 knowing that some of it and if you choose wisley most of it will go towards something that will make a difference. The said charity I choose, do not want to govern me, they do not want me to join there cause, they do not want to effect my pleasure time/hobby and I find the whole thing most affordable, as in I can give as and when I want.

If Angling Trust was a charity, I would not donate, whereas if ECHO were to reverte to indipendence and was a charity(not sure if it already is or not) I would.

kind regards Jeff

Jesus I still can't get it tight
It should have read "the fact is I couldn't be arsed chasing him up for the book because I was busy"....

yet another doughnut moment, doh..!!

I did a fund raise once many years ago for Gt Ormond St through work (I was the company magazine editor) and also as a sponsored 'fish-in' on the bank on a weeks session.
I remember approaching John Holt on the bank (didn't know who he was then) and he asked what I was sponsoring for.
When I told him he literally emptied his wallet and all his pockets and handed over the lot.
What a gesture.
The reason I mention that is because it is permanently in my memory as a great thing.
Through this we raised over £3000 I think it was over the year and they invited me and my helper up there and made a presentation of it with one of these huge cheques the bank give you and it was a great day (after I found the place- no sat navs then).
A good cause... and I find it a shame that this thread has degenerated because I am sure as Richard says everyone had the right intentions to start with but sadly we anglers always tend to fall out too often.

_________________


Never judge another mans Quorn by your own bacon sandwich.

As concept of fishing socials is a wierd one for me, I have attended many and have paid through hte nose to do so, I have bought permits, raffle tickets, travelled hundreds of miles to take part etc, however one thing do not do is get sponsorship. I objet to it. If I went round my office and siad that I was going fishing this weekend as normal but would you all give me money to do so I would just get bemused looks, especially a tthe moent when money is tight and people may be concerned about job losses etc.

Now running a marathon, climbing a mountain - they require effort, sitting by a lake supping a beer is just a bit of a laugh and something I enjoy - I am not putting myself out to do it so why should others sponser me to do it. On socials where others have been getting sponsored I have just made a donation form myself in lieu of sponsorship.

On the Cemex site last year we did an Old Vs Young match on Sandhurst; including ticket fees to Cememx, fuel form Bradford, bait, BBQ food, beers etc and a charity donation etc it cost me the thick end of £250 - for that I had a bloody good time, a hang over and gave some money to a good cause. Now surly if it had really been ALL about the charity, I would just have given the charity £250...... I would ahve caught just as many fish

With regards Jim and charities, I am a member of the Fen Drayton synidcate he runs, on my membership form last year it said that the revenue raised from any guest tickets would go to charity and that cheques for guest tickets should be made out to XYZ charity - I believe the Cambs Air Ambulance although I may be wrong - so he does do his bit.

A while back on another forum it became apparent that one of the members on there was quite sick and not so dusty, just a normal "average Joe carper". Lots and lots of members offer kind words and a whole shed load of get well messages.

Jim Shelley did the same and offered a guest ticket to the fellow(and his wife who also fished), to be taken up at the guys leiasure. Another shout up for Jims big heart.

kind regards "Longing for the day when ECHO breaks its links with AT" Jeff

Ive long been a fan of Mr. Holts too. I had no idea he was also an angler. and it puts paid to this nonsense that the Uk afro carribean community never fish.

_________________
www.automaticleaders.co.uk
Driving school teaching automatic lessons
In and around Bexley area.

i rest my case,the truth.
i have another £20 for charity from a fen guest ticket.
wot the f@@k has being banned from a site gotta do with this .
jeff m8,you know i will only be to glad to help you at any time m8.
uncle jim
KIR

Not that 'JoHn Holt' Paul although I love his music. Yeah Man..... Irie.
I'm talking about the 'John Holt' who many on here will have never of heard about and is one of the top three carp anglers ever in this small island..... IMO. And many true carpers in the know.
He is out of the 'publicity circle' and sees carp fishing as a passion and not an ego trip or a cash cow as many do.
Nuff said.
Bleep out.

_________________


Never judge another mans Quorn by your own bacon sandwich.

My own personal view on this much debated topic is this......WHY does it have to be a choice between the Angling Trust or Charity. If you're a passionate angler, and that covers "all aspects of the sport", not just carping, then surely a commitment of £20.00 a year to help bond us together represented by one voice can only be good for the sport as a whole.
If in the past you supported the ACA, SAA or any of the other angling associated organisations as i have then it's a simple matter of transferring your allegiance to the ONE organisation that represents US ALL.

On the flip side there is no reason other than personal choice why anyone should or should not support any given charity.
Chris(DKM) and myself have always been staunch supporters of ECHO, as well as being members and to support the cause further we run a charity fundraiser every year on the carp lake we co manage. It's a 48 hour event where the lake is closed for the weekend and only syndicate members and guests "who pay to fish" the event take part.
We have fantastic support from companies and individuals alike in the carping industry who donate goods that are auctioned or raffled over the weekend.
The proceeds from the event are divided equally between ECHO and one of the very worthwhile Cancer Support Groups.

Wether you support charities or not is up to you, there's thousands of them out there....The Angling Trust that represents us all is surely something we should all be supporting...£20.00...I spend more on bait for a weekend session

_________________
ECHO
Angling Trust

Lincolnshire Poacher

That is the 'age old argument' Rick, "£20? I spend that on bait at the weekend etc..." never an 'argument' that tends to engender support, although absolutely true!

Anglers - enmasse - never support their own groups, it really is based solely on mistrust at best (lack of awareness and apathy at its worst), and it is not an argument that is often based upon their financial situation.

Everyone has a choice as to whether they choose to support Angling Trust, or not, as they see fit.

However, Jeff (Jaffa) often tries to suggest that funds are being misappropriated on half heard whispers from "well known sources", which he naturally never names... he was also saying the same thing before the organisation was formed?

And Jim doesn't really seem to understand what's actually going on at all and chooses to counter his reluctance to join based on the fact that he gives to charity, and also believes that AT is just in it for the money?

Whilst I sympathise with both of the gentleman's opinions, their insinuations aren't really constructive and lack anything credible to support their suspicions, however valid 'the individuals opinions are'.

Charity has nothing to do with AT in a direct manner, the Angling Trust is all part of angling growing as a group/body, and to blindly believe that a national angling body isn't required is tantamount to tossing the family silver (namely to protect and enhance angling in all regards)... into the river!

It's your choice gents, as it is every anglers, but the world has changed and angling has to change with it (even if you never do). That's a fact.


Richard

_________________
To join ECHO

'Tis better to have hooked and lost, than never to have hooked at all'

hi richard,
sorry i do...in there pockets ...cheers guys thats a nice pay rise.
IAM A BELIEVER lol
uncle jim
KIR

i guess until AT obtains anglers understanding as well as their trust they will always be seen as in it for the money

The few anglers who do take a gamble will be the rich and the less cautious

Cancer charities and kids charities are very open, we all see the good they do and the causes they support touch all of our lives

Where is the evidence to show a group of so called anglers who think they can improve the sport are more worthy of our cash?

_________________

It wasn't so long ago people thought the earth was flat

Guess only time will tell eh?

_________________
My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch

Before I posted properly on this thread I read up about the A.T. on their site. Sure I knew the basic structure and reasons for the A.T. being set up but I wanted to understand more completely if it was the proposed organisation that represented all angling factions. I believe its got a good chance of doing just that.

I joined today!
How can you not support an organisation that stands a chance of becoming what angling has struggled to achieve for decades, a united voice.

As a serious angler I felt I had to support the organisation otherwise my opinions on the various aspects of angling whether they be of a political nature, regarding pollution, angling ethics, fishery management, fish care etc would have been hypercritical as I hadn't actually "put my money where my mouth is".

In my opinion there shouldn't be the question "Angling Trust Vs Charity?". They're two complteley different entities.

The A.T. has been set up for the benefit of each and every angler here in the UK and so is OUR organisation. How can that be called a charity when you join something to benefit yourself directly?

My definition of "charity" is when someone gives up their time or money to benefit and organisation that helps somebody else. It's a personal choice as to which charity you support according to your own beliefs and priorities.

Some institutions, I believe, shouldn't need to become charities. Children's hospitals for example. These places should receive the funds they need directly from the government and funds for flag waving exercises like the 2012 Olympics should only be funded if there's any spare funding available.

Because they don't they need the support of charitable people to do a little bit for them. The extent of what they do again is a personal choice. For some its enough to spend a pound on a raffle ticket (maybe that's all they can afford and well done to them for giving), others devote their lives to raising funds and in between there are people who like to do their bit enthusiastically when the occasion arises.

Fishing socials can be just that , a "social". A weekend by a lake with mates, a BBQ, some beers (the "some" is very ambiguous) and the chance of a fish or two.

At Archer we call our annual event a "Charity Fundraising Social Fishing weekend". The emphasis for the event follows the same priority as the sequence of the words and all attendees over the years have expressed their feeling of satisfaction of having achieved something when we announce the amount of funds raised each year. What an excellent, enjoyable way to raise money for good causes with just a little effort.

Personally speaking thats far more imortant to me than who caught what over the weekend and I make no apologies for my enthusiastic selling of raffle tickets and name cards or auctioning of donated prizes.

I can add A.T. to my signature now that I'm a member. I don't post what isn't the truth.

_________________
ECHO Use your loaf!
Angling Trust Its for you!

Chris Frankish (in the real world)

Unfortunately I was a little over optimistic with this figure but ultimately G.O.S.H. received £1,359.23

_________________
ECHO Use your loaf!
Angling Trust Its for you!

Chris Frankish (in the real world)

dont worry chris,iam back on there,now your differant BANNED
kind
regards
uncle jim
KIR
ps,probably in your pocket LOL

Having some difficulty understanding what your last post was all about Jim and what relevance it has to the thread, white lightening been out tonight ?

_________________
ECHO
Angling Trust

Lincolnshire Poacher

no son champs .
uncle jim
KIR

Rick, the same could be asked of the childish posts that have been made by your childish friend, the relevance of his posts to the topic are and were?

The Angling Trust Vs Charity...I'm still not sure why this topic was given this title as it happens. Richard are you asking the question that if we had £20 to spare, would you give it to a charity or to the AT in some way? if so then it's a free-ish World so you support whatever organisation you want to, if any at all. The AT doesn't change lives in the way that many charities do but it's your money and you make your choice, simple.

It seemed a reasonably appropriate title, which was basically made up in the moments that I had to do so, whilst splitting this "new" thread from the thread.

If you can think of a better, maybe a more appropriate title, let me know Robin and I'll change it no probs.


Richard

_________________
To join ECHO

'Tis better to have hooked and lost, than never to have hooked at all'

There's nothing wrong with the title itself Richard, I just find myself unsure of the question that it might be posing as per the second part of my last post....cheers anyway

The title Robin was literally based on Jim Shelley suggesting that, rather than giving £20 to AT members would be better off giving it to charities unconnected to angling. This then became a seperate issue from the previous thread from which it 'sprung', so was split to this "new" thread.

I personally don't believe that the two are comparible and are two seperate issues [charity or AT]. Any person that has the means to do so, has every right to do with their money as they see fit, I give monthly donations to charities and to angling organisations.

I will state this though, if my financial status were to deteriorate, it would be the charities that would be scratched from my donations first, as opposed to the angling organisations, as I firmly believe that the sport I love needs a national voice (in this instance regarding AT).


Richard

_________________
To join ECHO

'Tis better to have hooked and lost, than never to have hooked at all'

I'm the opposite I'm afraid mate....as much as I love carping and have done for loads of years now, I've seen what goes on in a kids hospital first hand and it's a hard thing to watch and deal with at times, they need all the help they can get so in troubled times I'd scratch the AT and ECHO first. Despite the time I've spent angling and my enthusiasm for it, it's a no contest for me mate, though I do feel a bit peeved that we should have to fund such an important hospital by way of donations in the first place.

Rich you are totally right, it is down to each person to do whatever they want with there money and that is not up for question in my mind. If my own circumstances changed even more for the worse, I would still try to find a way to give to some of the charities I do. They do a huge ammount of genuine good and in some cases help to save lives.

Fish are fish and come way down the pecking order.

Here is an intresting quote from an angler I spoke to whilst gathering signatures for the petition against Angling Trust.

"If ECHO was a charity, I would walk/run as far as I need to to help raise money for them. If Angling Trust was a charity, I would not walk to the end of my road and I live in the last but one house."

You have got some job on your hands conecting with anglers that have been totally alienated

kind regards Jeff

Agreed, as much as I love my fishing - I reckon sick kids are a bit more important. I don't have kids (heaven forbid - any one who knows me will back that one up ) but I imagine if I did such opinions would be even stronger.

finaly
uncle jim
KIR

Good to see you happy Jim

_________________
ECHO Use your loaf!
Angling Trust Its for you!

Chris Frankish (in the real world)